Wednesday, August 30, 2006

The Protestant Principle: Divide and Conquer




A little while ago during one of his teaching hours, my dean was using the word "Protestant" to describe a group of Christians opposed to his own position (which he continually called "Catholic"). At first I was a bit confused about this seeing that the Anglican Church has always been considered a Protestant Church, but the more I have come to think about it the more reticent I am to use the word Protestant because of what Fr. Richard John Neuhaus has called (and he is surely not the first) the Protestant Principle.

As far as I can tell the Protestant Principle is basically "divide and conquer." Actually it might be more appropriate to call it "divide and become insignificant." I mean when was the last time anyone outside the Baptist denomination cared whether they accepted literal 24-hour creationism? The whole ridiculousness of the Episcopal Church going on with homosexuality, liberalism, and female primates (linked?) might very well be seen as a last bid for some significance in a world that ultimately doesn't care what dividing churches do or say. On the other hand, can anyone honestly say that John Paull II did not have a significant influence on the world, let along on Roman Catholicism or Christendom? He may not have stopped communism single-handedly, but his pleas for social action and peace have changed the minds of many. But what is at the core of Protestantism which makes it so insignificant today?

I think Bishop Tom Wright was correct when he said that the Reformation was the religious version of the Enlightenment (in the first sections of The Challenge of Jesus). What principle was at the core of the Enlightenment, broadbrushing accepted? Autonomy of the individual soul or rather reasonable substance. It seems to me that there was a revolt against all things traditional in the early Reformation and this lead to Luther's theology of Protestantism as well as the anabaptist sects which revelled in iconoclasm of more than just stone. The Protestant motto seems to be "divide and conquer", taking every part of tradition and subjecting it to the rational substance we all have in order to weigh its merits. For Protestantism it seems that the whole is merely the sum of all its parts.

On the other side of the debate we have the Catholic tradition, something not subjected to mere opinion in the way Protestant doctrine is formed. This is not limited to Roman Catholicism (I don't think, yet...) because anyone can see the differences of method when they read Luther or Calvin. There is not a page in Calvin which does not go back to the Fathers for insight into the Christian tradition, something he wished to Reform, not remake. Some would make the case for Luther as well, but Protestantism as it stands today in America (at least) seems to have gone the Anabaptist route and seeks "personal" authority in every interpretation. Catholic tradition is something wholly different (pun intended) since the whole is more than just the sum of the parts. Tradition is not just the educated opinions of some men (and women) in the past, it is the living dialogue which the present part of the Church has with the past members. The Church is not a collection of just people, it is the living union of Christ with his bride. The role of the Church is to keep the "faith once handed down" from the apostles and Jesus, whereas Protestantism is to change the faith whenever something new comes up in the mind of an individual. In Protestantism a small group of people are the Church (if you can use the captial C) whereas in Roman Catholicism the Church is the Church. It is a living entity which is really the earthly prescence of the Lord Jesus to his people through Word and Sacrament. In this case the Roman Catholic Church is theocentric whereas the Protestant church is unduly anthropocentric. In the Protestant scheme "man is the measure of all things" whereas in the Catholic system the community of saints is the true rule.

As a case example of this distinction we can look at women's ordination. The majority of Protestant churches have accepted women's ordination as required by Scriptures even though there are no explicit passages commanding it (some would say quite to the contrary). It might be logically necessary that Protestantism accept women's ordination (despite the protests of PCA, LCMS, and others) because there is really nothing keeping them back. In the Protestant scheme one can pull a single issue (women's role in ministry) and focus on it indefinitely until the consensus over interpretation changes. The past does not matter or can be explained away as being "naive" or "biased" as if there were neither of those today! Thus taken to the extreme Protestantism seems to allow a continuously changing doctrine for the church, as seen in the Epsicopal Church as it redefines salvation, Jesus, God, ministry, humanity and everything else. But it does this by seperating one from all the rest, isolating each issue and pounding opposition into submissiong through emotive utterances.

The Catholic position is quite different because tradition and doctrine are "one seemless garment", not to be taken apart and examined seperately. Fr. Neuhaus comments that the present part of the Church is not allowed to change the issue of women's ordination because that ignores the majority of who makes up the Church: the traditional teaching of the fathers (and mothers). In the Catholic system doctrine is allowed to develop, but not to change because that denies the Holy Spirit's continuous work in his Church. This might sound like being handicapped to the past, but that is only because we are naturally inclined to see the past as something bad or wrong. C.S. Lewis called this "chronological snobbery", the idea that the newest things have a stronger truth claim then the older things. We must take seriously the thinking of the traditions and take very seriously the changing of teaching in areas like ordination. Some have compared the women in ministry issue to the African-Americans in ministry issue in America, but to do this is not only culturally self-centred but also historically naive. There was never a prohibition in the Catholic Church of people of different skin colour being priests or bishops (one need only think of the desert fathers - white skinned Europeans?), whereas the prohibition of female priests and bishops has been part of the tradition since the choosing of the twelve.

This example is not designed to argue for a distinct different in ministry roles between men and women but only to show that the understanding of the Church is vastly different between the Protestant and Catholic systems. One says "we need to listen to the whole Church" whereas the other says "I need to listen to myself (or the Holy Spirit, or the Bible, or whatever individualistic misunderstanding of enlightenment you want to put there)." The Protestant Principle is divide and conquer and this will lead to a conquering, but more a being conquered by ever false wind of doctrine.

So I am quite happy to reject the label Protestant as my Dean has. A tell-tale sign of Anglo-Catholicism was the rejection of the Reformation as a mistake, and insofar as it was based on the Enlightenment principle of individual autonomy and reason over thinking with tradition and "being-in-the-world", I am comfortable rejecting that as well. The real question in my mind is whether Newman's path is inevitable and whether a Calvinist would dare to swim the Tiber River.

52 Comments:

At 2:49 pm, Blogger Hans-Georg Gadamer said...

Two comments:
1. I remembered why I have not been writting, it took my longer to format this post than it did to type it.

2. I know hyperlinking is supposed to be a "doodle", but I spent about twenty minutes trying to put a link in this post like my other ones and nothing worked. Anyone have a link formula that I can just copy and paste into blogger and change the address and title? Seriously, why does blogger hate me?

 
At 8:41 am, Blogger JMC said...

“hmmm... that one's decidedly disputed, Mr Gadamer, whatever you may choose to believe.”

By whom? Just because there are examples throughout the history of the Church of individuals who have supported female priesthood doesn’t mean that the Church has ever supported it. But, if you think that is “decidedly disputed,” show your cards, Protestant.

“which tradition of the Eucharist do you think we should follow - 1st Century, 3rd Century, 15th Century?”

Protestant, you seem to be blurring the distinction between development and amendment in doctrine. Not that all development is good (I’m not arguing that), but it is a decidedly different process from amending doctrine as you please.

Hans, great post. RJN wrote this really interesting essay/letter regarding and at the time of his conversion to Roman Catholicism in which he essentially said that he had always considered himself Catholic, although not always Roman.

 
At 10:04 am, Blogger Hans-Georg Gadamer said...

Y! - good to hear from you! I hope you and the family are doing well! Thanks for the comments although I echo J. morg's sentiments exactly.
I think the continuity in the Eucharist is good on the "What" of it but the discontinuity is on the "How". The anabaptist tradition changed both whereas development of doctrine only changes the how (sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse).
On the final issue, "taken to the extreme" is a form of the logical argument reductio ad absurdum which is certainly not cheap, although it has a rhetorical violence about it which some may not like.
I am still in the "protestant side" myself, although recently I have become more hesitant about using that description.

 
At 11:08 am, Blogger RJ said...

To play the protestant's advocate a little, I don't think you're doing them justice. Protestantism certainly has opened the door for some of the things you've argued for, but it's not like protestantism immediately equals ignorance towards authority in favor of personal whim, though this is certainly easier for protestants than catholics. The original protestants, reformers, were focused on rooting out this same thing from catholicism as a whole. They saw doctrine, scripture and tradition being warped and abused and protested that abuse by encouraging sound doctrine, right?

Secondly, John Paul wasn't significant just because he was the pope of a unified religious order. We've had plenty of insignificant popes throughout the ages, and plenty of very important protestants. Whether you agree with the stereotypes we frequently blast parachurch organizations with, James Dobson and Chuck Colson have both done tremendous good in this country regardless of their standing as protestants.

So while I think you've got a lot of good things to say here, I'd appreciate it if you'd take it a little easier on your straw man, ok?

 
At 11:08 am, Blogger JMC said...

Hans, thinking more about your questions, I don't think Newman's path is inevitable. In fact, Newman's path is only plausible if one doesn't take seriously being a Catholic apart from Rome. If being Catholic really does mean more - or something other - than being Roman Catholic, then there is no need to cross the Tiber. As for your second question, I don't think there is any reason a Calvinist wouldn't cross the Tiber; he would just have to be willing to reformulate certain aspects of being a Calvinist.

Protestant, I think this could be a very fruitful debate, so please don't hesitate in responding.

 
At 11:14 am, Blogger RJ said...

I agree with J. Morgan there - I don't think you have to become a Roman to reflect your definition of Protestant, and I think that's precisely what the original protestants were trying to accomplish. While I'm rather undeducated about this, I find that there are still things emphasized or enforced by the Roman catholic church that I don't consider orthodoxy, and so I consider myself to be still in protest against these things, or protestant.

We'd do well to try and avoid a historical snobbery in the reverse as well - the idea that things are better or right just because they're old is just as prevalent and deadly as our penchant for novelty. What's traditionally accepted needs taken seriously and not simply ignored - I agree with you that many protestants are in the wrong about this - but at the same time we need to admit that sometimes a reformation is due.

 
At 11:24 am, Blogger Hans-Georg Gadamer said...

Redness - I think you are right in saying that not all protestants ignore authority like it is their job. But my point is that I think intrinsic to protestantism is a sense of individualism and anti-authoritarianism. I don't think all protestants follow this because I don't think all people are consistent in their thinking. The early reformers (Calvin specifically) were certainly not following this, but that is because they saw themselves as "Catholics" or in the great tradition. It is only later that the logic of Protestantism might be working itself out in the infinite denominazationalism (wow!) that is protestantism. So I agree that not all protestants act like my "straw man" but in my thinking that is because they haven't fully worked out the implications of their philosophical principles (or the system's).

People do all sorts of things that are against who they claim themselves to be. Protestants who seem to act more positively towards authority are in my thinking borrowing that from the tradition of catholic thinking, not their own.

Secondly, I think in the US Dobson may be more influential than JPII, but even there it is questionable. On the world scene there is no compition. And I think there have been "useless" popes, but the virtue of his office allows him to make a difference in the world that no protestant can consistently make. So the office provides potential, the man provides the power.

J. Morgs - I absolutely agree with you on the catholic outside of Roman. I would tend to call myself an English Catholic in the Anglican tradition, or have thought that way. I am starting to wonder however if there can be a Catholic outside of traditional communion with the Roman Church. Not too seriously, but I can see their points. But I don't have any intentions of changing in the near future.

"Reformulate", I like that.

 
At 11:29 am, Blogger Hans-Georg Gadamer said...

Redness - a reformation definitely was needed, I just prefer the idea of reforming the Church as opposed to seperating from it (which is what ended up happening). I know this was the principle of the early reformers (most of them) but Rome certainly wasn't in favour in many cases. Mark Noll in a recent book (Is the Reformation Over?) makes the interesting point that after researching Rome's current catechism and beliefs she has reformed in a way acceptable to protestant doctrine (except to the most stubborn) while the protestants have moved further and further away not desiring any union in significant degree. It is an interesting read and I think a lot of what he says is accurate. Have we tried to get back to unity or not?

Good point about reverse chronological snobbery - we need to think with tradition, not just accept it. But just thinking won't do.

 
At 10:02 pm, Blogger Brian Gurley, M.S.M. said...

Hans,

Interesting post. Glad there's a new post to read. After reading it, I was hard pressed to find some quick, yet insightful comment to follow all this great discussion.

From my Roman perspective, the Tiber is not some fine line that one easily tip-toes...I am finding that to be the case more and more.

Stay tuned to When in Rome for a related post. I'll try and have it up tomorrow.

I really wish I could offer something more, but since we've had this discussion before on several occasions, I'll just say that Calvin's Christology (from what I remember and understand) is too unbalanced (toward grace and away from humanity) for Roman ecclesiology to come into the picture.

That statement should make more sense after the promised post.

 
At 9:53 am, Blogger RJ said...

Hans: good points. I hesitate to expound my reasons for not being a catholic, but I'm going to do it anyway and expose my ignorance, because I want to hear what you'll say. If you don't want to continue this on your blog - if I'm making too big a tangent - then just email me and I won't reply here again.

Here's why I'm not catholic.
1.) I don't think the Catholic church has honestly recognized and apologized for the vast and disgusting abuses of their power during the middle ages
2.) I don't think the Catholic church has admitted to distorting Christianity with religious paganism during the middle ages and just before them
3.) I don't think Mary is remotely divine or worth any reverance
4.) I don't believe in the cult of the saints.
5.) I don't agree with mandating bans on contraception
6.) I think restraining clergy from sex and marriage is simply ridiculous.

I have the feeling this represents a very ignorant view of catholicism, so I apologize again for that before hand, but those are the main reasons I'm not a catholic.

 
At 10:33 am, Blogger Brian Gurley, M.S.M. said...

Red...

In the humblest response imaginable, I cannot help but recognize in those reasons an even weaker straw man than what you found in Hans post. One is able to understand a great deal of meaning in the way certain ideas are articulated. And what I read in those reasons and their language is a chronic misunderstanding of Roman doctrine.

There is no room for uninformed conclusions in any level of discussion from anyone participating in the discussion...most especially in discussions of a faith which many people treasure.

Regarding your first reason, please, please, read TERTIO MILLENNIO ADVENIENTE. I'll leave it to you to find out who wrote it, and I'll leave it to you to find the paragraph that addresses your first concern.

Fruitful discussion is only possible when those engaged in the discussion put effort into understanding those positions contrary to their own. It isn't an easy effort, but discussion without that effort is without significance.

There are responses that I can offer to all of those reasons, but there's hardly room in a blog.

This discussion has appeared on Hans' blog on other occasions. It's about time we made some progress.

 
At 2:08 pm, Blogger RJ said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 2:26 pm, Blogger RJ said...

Dar Panzer,

I'm sorry if I offended you or tried to make it seem like I thought those reasons were conclusive. They're not, and I openly admitted my ignorance, twice, in an attempt to prevent someone from reacting in the way you did.

I'll look into your TERTIO MILLENNIO ADVENIENTE. Not telling me the title or paragraph really doesn't present much challenge in our internet driven age, but more presents the implication that you think I'm so ignorant I need a lesson in practical research. Is that what you meant by it?

"Fruitful discussion is only possible when those engaged in the discussion put effort into understanding those positions contrary to their own."

I thought that's what I was doing - the implication was that I wanted one of you enlightened nobles to tell me otherwise. Fruitful discussion is made more possible when those who wish for someone else to understand take the time to state themselves clearly and completely, and so I apologize for not doing that, and would appreciate the same courtesy.

I don't know why you don't think blogs are the appropriate context for such a discussion, though you seem quite content to post, so if you'd like to point me to some more reading, on your blog or in other books, I'd be happy to spend my morning bus ride making provisions for fruitful discussion.

 
At 2:27 pm, Blogger RJ said...

for anyone else, that links should have pointed here.

 
At 3:56 pm, Blogger Brian Gurley, M.S.M. said...

Red...

No need to apologize. I was not offended by what appeared on the list. Those items appear on the lists of many non-Catholics, and sadly many "Catholics".

I will preface the following comments by saying that the list is extremely widespread...to the point that when one hears the word "Catholicism", the list immediately comes to mind.

My issue with the list is that I, rightly or wrongly, expect that the list be backed by the convincing understanding of the one who refers to the list. The starting point in a discussion which uses this list should not be prefaced with an apology for possible ignorance.

Thanks to our Internet-driven world, countless helpful resources are available to us. With this in mind, I feel that these 'non-conclusions' should actually be closer to actual conclusions, and that those who list them should be ready to discuss why they are correct or incorrect.

I don't think that this is too much to expect. In my mind, if I were to make a similar list of non-conclusive reasons why I am not non-Catholic, it might look like this:

1. Sola scriptura is not a suffiecient mode of carrying on Revelation.
2. Sola fide is nonsense.
3. Two sacraments are too few.

If I were to use a list such as this, you would be perfectly justified for expecting me to have a convincing understanding of each item. They are foundational to non-Catholic Christianity, and there is plenty of information available for me to learn about each item. I should not have to preface such a list with an apology for possible ignorance.

Having said all this, I feel that lists of non-conclusions suggest that in the back of your mind, you already know that these items are wrong, rather than approaching them open to the possibility that they might be right. In short, ask questions.

I think all this is fair, and I hold myself to the same expectations when approaching discussions of this nature. There is always more to learn.

It was not my intention to insult your intelligence by not listing the author of the letter. I got ahead of myself, and I apologize to you and those who read my blogs and comments. I sincerely appreciate being able to read all the discussion and being able to participate. Comments should not be discouraging, but they should rather encourage those engaged in the dialogue to learn more so that all may bring more insight to the table. I trust that all is not lost.

As far as exploring each item on the list in a blog comment, I simply meant that it is a considerable undertaking...not terribly practical over a short period of time. I did not mean that it should not be done.

 
At 2:15 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

This post of yours is one of the most "bizarre" I've ever come across by someone calling himself a "Calvinist".

As for Bishop Wright on the Reformation and Enlightenment, well, if he's right, then his scholarly pronouncements on the NPP is nothing but private judgments of an individual lacking the imprimatur of a recognisable Church authority. Those living in glass houses sholdn't throw bricks ...

 
At 7:10 am, Blogger JMC said...

Jason, I am afraid I don’t understand your banter. Just what is it you are driving at?

Doesn't anyone have anything else to say about this?

 
At 5:15 pm, Blogger CharlesPeirce said...

I'm working on it.

Mostly, I'm trying to figure out what hans was trying to say.

hans?

 
At 5:17 pm, Blogger Hans-Georg Gadamer said...

I have been visiting lovely friends in VA for a few days, so I missed most of the banter. Just a few comments for now on the second last post.
- Jason, first thanks for the compliment about the article and "Calvinism". Second, I think Tom Wright should be careful about throwing bricks in glass houses (which may or may not be the Anglican Communion - just because tghe Reformation was "wrong" doesn't mean a non-Protestant church is necessarily in trouble) but I am not sure why the NPP came up in this issue. Some personal resentment to the notion which you had to get out in the open? I don't remember him making any dogmatic statements on it as far as the Church of England is concerned.

Generally - I think I will post on why I am not a Roman Catholic since Redness was so kind to give some of his reasons (which I find acceptable but may need some reframing). Thanks for those redness and I will try and incorporate an answer to most of those which I imagine Josef finds offensive. That being said, prophesying a post usually means it won't happen. Stay tuned.

 
At 5:20 pm, Blogger Hans-Georg Gadamer said...

Charles - this post is as close to an analytic proposition that any post gets, so I am a little concerned that you don't get it. What do you want me to say? Isn't there some sort of immediate recognition or have you become a continental fellow yet?

 
At 7:43 pm, Blogger CharlesPeirce said...

Indeed, I've just completed my Rorty Fellowship at Relativist U.!

Okay, I'll reread and rehash!

 
At 3:51 pm, Blogger RJ said...

Panzer - I guess the question your comments bring to mind in me is, why haven't I researched this stuff? And the only conclusion I can come to is that it doesn't matter to me.

It doesn't matter to me because I've been raised as a protestant, and I don't see a physical continuity between my church and Pauls as something worth worrying about. It doesn't matter to me because I don't think that the catholic church matters any more than the baptists or the methodists, and I haven't taken the time to research their doctrines either. It doesn't matter to me because I grew up in disfunctional protestant churches listening to stories from my friends about dysfunctional mormon and catholic churches. It doesn't matter to me because here in Colorado, I've never seen the catholic church behave any better or do anything more worth while than any other church, which is to say I've never seen it do anything worth caring about at all.

It doesn't matter because all I've grown up knowing about the church is that it's a group of people who aren't much different than everyone outside of the church except that they talk about Jesus a lot, pray any time more than 3 of them are in a room together, and sing songs everyone pretends to enjoy.

In short, the catholic church does not matter to me because the church does not matter to me. The church doesn't matter to me because it seems like a cultural institution at best and a human religion as significant as any paganism at worst.

I realize this is rather ignorant and reflects the limited experience I've had with healthy churches growing up, and so I try to admit - not just preemptively apologize for - that ignorance wherever possible. But the easiest way I've found to learn about these things is through open dialogue about them, and that's why I brought it up. Not because I feel justified in my beliefs about them, but before I go to all the effort to research the counter-argument, I'd like to hear someone give me a good reason why I should other than, "because then you won't sound like an idiot."

I'd really love it if you'd start a series of posts on your blog tackling this short list of standard protestant stereotypes of the catholic church. I'd definitely read it. I'm going to go check right now to see what you have been posting on.

 
At 6:17 pm, Blogger Hans-Georg Gadamer said...

Redness - "In short, the catholic church does not matter to me because the church does not matter to me. The church doesn't matter to me because it seems like a cultural institution at best and a human religion as significant as any paganism at worst."

Yikes!

 
At 6:40 pm, Blogger Brian Gurley, M.S.M. said...

Red,

I appreciate your candor regarding your background, and even moreso your openness to a Roman response to the list. Both are refreshing, even if I echo hans with "yikes".

I will gladly propose responses to your list, though I can't promise them any sooner than late next week or later. I will be thinking about them in the meantime. Stay tuned.

 
At 9:34 am, Blogger CharlesPeirce said...

vHans, you do really well when your critics and friends are aggressive and fair, so that’s what I’m going to aim to be in this comment: aggressive and fair. At the outset, let me say that I disagree with nearly everything you wrote, and I don’t even know where to start. With that said, let’s start.

You assert that the Protestant Principle is basically divide and conquer, or divide and become insignificant. Like Alasdair MacIntyre, I need to ask: Whose principle? I don’t know that there is “Official Protestant Theology” that I can look up, whose first principle is “Divide and Conquer: Whenever there’s a theological dispute, splinter.” You may respond that you were oversimplifying to make your point, but since I don’t know what your point was (aside from a commendation of the Catholic church, which I’ll address below), it seems to me to amount to a disjointed oversimplification unconnected to anything else, a reification up with which I will not put.

You then ask “when was the last time anyone outside the Baptist denomination cared whether they accepted literal 24-hour creationism?” But the vast majority of all of our concerns are parochial! There are individual concerns, family concerns, community concerns, church concerns, and national concerns. Objectively, the debate about 24-hour creation IS unimportant compared to AIDS in Africa, but I don’t understand why one large church’s theological concern is any less relevant than any other large church’s theological concern.

You also contrast “current debates going on within one church” with “the head of the Catholic church for 26 years.” Those aren’t equivalent—there is plenty (pace panzerkardinal) of bluster inside the Catholic Church as well. I don’t understand how you can juxtapose like that—it ignores all of the work the church does on a day-to-day basis and all the hours of service pastors put in. The Protestant Church has Reinhold Niebuhr, Desmond Tutu, MLK Jr., Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Jimmy Carter, Karl Barth, Albert Schweitzer, Stanley Hauerwas, T.D. Jakes—they don’t count for anything?

You identify the Reformation with the Enlightenment, Calvin with Catholicism (!) and then declare that Protestant doctrine is “subject to mere opinion.” Mere opinion? It was the Reformers who wanted (put aside whether they succeeded or not) to go back to the beginning (ad fontes!) Luther in no way saw himself as some sort of 16th century Kant, weighing the Catholic church’s teachings against something inside himself—for him everything was to be weighed against the Bible, which he translated into German for the better measurement. You let Calvin’s ad fontes method stand on its own, and subtract the current goings-on of Protestants from Luther’s! I need to quote your passage in full to explain what I mean here:

There is not a page in Calvin which does not go back to the Fathers for insight into the Christian tradition, something he wished to Reform, not remake. Some would make the case for Luther as well, but Protestantism as it stands today in America (at least) seems to have gone the Anabaptist route and seeks "personal" authority in every interpretation.

The “but” in your second sentence connects your accusation of an overemphasis on personal authority in today’s culture to Luther, but lets Calvin stand by himself. Whence this? Unless you can tie this personal authority crisis specifically to Luther, or to any of the Reformation specifically, you have no case—it all counts as much against Calvin as against Luther. (Are today’s Presbyterians head and shoulders above today’s Lutherans in proper reverence? If so, make the case.)

You use women’s ordination as an example of something that might be legitimate on its own merits, but that was begotten by illegitimate methods: namely, declaring it by fiat and letting justification come post hoc. You say “Protestantism seems to allow a continuously changing doctrine for the church.” Unlike—everyone else? Do today’s Catholics understand doctrine as—pre Vatican II believers did? Pre Vatican I? Pre Reformation? Pre church fathers?

Then, your final caricature:

Catholicism says "We need to listen to the whole Church."

I don’t agree with that—Catholicism says we need to listen to tradition, to the Pope, to our priests, to our dioceses…

Protestantism says "I need to listen to myself, or the Holy Spirit, or the Bible, or whatever individualistic misunderstanding of enlightenment you want to put there."

Listening to the Bible is an individualistic misunderstanding of enlightenment? Do you really want to argue that? The overemphasis of current evangelicals on “listening to the Spirit,” like your friend hoping the Spirit would tell him which way to turn, is not the triumph of Kantianism over Protestantism, or the proof of the Catholic Church’s authority against the Protestant’s. It’s a misunderstanding—with roots, certainly, but not the definitive problem with Protestantism, or placing the Bible above “the whole Church.”

A commendation of the Catholic Church for its reverence toward tradition could stand on its own, without your unsupported claims about Protestantism. Any one of the twenty ideas you’ve thrown out here is post-worthy, but would need to be fleshed out and supported. I understand and share your frustration—not in the exact same ways—but I comment as one in the same traditions as you, whether you like or not.

 
At 10:48 am, Blogger RJ said...

Man, that comment is amazing. Really nice work, Charles.

Also, sorry for going off on the church. I understand the "yikes", and I feel a little "yikes" about it myself, but I don't live in a world saturated with any intellectual considerations about the church other than those I might bring myself. Colorado does not have churches with deep, rich, vibrant traditions reaching out to bring Christ through the tradition of church to the community. It has the superficial appearance of church and absolutely nothing worth noting behind it, so I struggle, and always have, with the importance of the things we argue about where church and religion are concerned. I want a church that preaches substantially valuable truth and then substantially and materially impacts the community through visible and purposful acts of service, and until we have that here, I can't see the importance of worrying about the number of sacrements we observe, or which denomination has a better understanding of justification. I hope that helps clear things up a little and makes me sound a bit less pretentious and dogmatic.

 
At 10:09 pm, Blogger Hans-Georg Gadamer said...

Charles - thanks for the comments, I guess. I typed for an hour responding to what I saw were mis-representations in your understanding of the post as well as challenges to your arguments. Sadly, my computer seems to have frozen and I lost the whole comment. An hour's worth gone. So I guess I will just leave my comments to myself as I have no desire to re-type the whole thing. So frustrating.

 
At 9:34 am, Blogger CharlesPeirce said...

Hey, I would have loved to have misrepresented--I thought the objections I cited were pretty darn specific, though. Can you re-type for a couple minutes and humor us? Thanks.

 
At 7:27 pm, Blogger Hans-Georg Gadamer said...

Charles - I'll give you one:

I said "There is not a page in Calvin which does not go back to the Fathers for insight into the Christian tradition, something he wished to Reform, not remake. Some would make the case for Luther as well, but Protestantism as it stands today in America (at least) seems to have gone the Anabaptist route and seeks "personal" authority in every interpretation."

You then responded with:
"The “but” in your second sentence connects your accusation of an overemphasis on personal authority in today’s culture to Luther, but lets Calvin stand by himself. Whence this? Unless you can tie this personal authority crisis specifically to Luther, or to any of the Reformation specifically, you have no case—it all counts as much against Calvin as against Luther. (Are today’s Presbyterians head and shoulders above today’s Lutherans in proper reverence? If so, make the case.)"

Your argument seems to be as follows:
1. I have connected Luther too significantly to the loss of tradition in Protestantism by the use of the but.
2. Calvin is in the same camp that Luther is in if this first statement is so.

My response:
1. I think you have read way too much into my but and have assumed I use language in exactly the same way as you do. In this case the but was refering to the lack of Church fathers and tradition in exegesis of Scripture, not specifically tied to Luther. In case you were in doubt you should have read further down the sentence and noticed I clarified by accusing the anabaptist tradition as being the progenitors of this movement, not Luther. I admit to be perfectly technical I should have put the Luther bit in parenthesis, but (!) to assume that I equate Luther with Anabaptist tradition is most uncharitable and unreflective. If you can find a sentence where I said "Luther and the Anabaptist tradition" then you might be on solid ground. You can't and therefore I think you misinterpreted my sentence because you didn't read the whole thing before making a judgment.

2. To the second point, so as not to let Luther off the hook, my specific claim in that paragraph was against the lack of tradition in current exegesis and church docrtine, a la Anabaptism. Now you said that Luther and Calvin fall together on this point but I have made it clear that they don't: Calvin's writing is filled with authoritative references to the fathers (do you really want to argue Calvin with me?) whereas I have not found any such authority in Luther's writings. Maybe you have, but I am willing to bet you haven't. If you wanted to save Luther from the criticism you would need to produce copious amounts of references to the Church fathers from some of Luther's writings (say Heildeberg disputation, or Babylonian Captivity, or maybe the Freedom of a Christian, etc.). You haven't given me any references so the point remains: concerning use of the fathers, Calvin:1; Luther and Anabaptists: less than 1. So Calvin survives the fall due to his appeal to Church fathers whereas Luther does not (in my opinion and reading of him).

Of course Presbyterianism today falls with all the other Protestant sects! But what I would argue (and I think to a good extent) is that the Presbyterianism found in the US today is more in line with a muted form of Zwinglianism rather than a full blooded Calvinism (see Nevin, Muller, or Matheson for this). So Presbyterianism falls as well, but that isn't Calvin! At least not in the states.

So in short I think you have grossly mis-represented me in your arguments and would appreciate a little more charitable reading next time.

 
At 8:56 pm, Blogger Hans-Georg Gadamer said...

I did some ground work for you.

In a collection of Luther's writings here are the number of references to certain fathers:

Aquinas: 1!
Athanasius: 1!
Augustine: 17
Bernard of Clairvaux: 6
Cyprian: 4
Adam (historical person): 10

Now in Calvin's Institutes:
Aquinas: 100+
Athanasius: 11
Augustine: 800+
Bernard of Clairvaux: 50+
Cyprian: 80+
Adam (historical person): 1,000+

Seriously? Why does Luther dislike church fathers so much? And if he makes reference to Adam as a historical person how can you be a Lutheran? Are you going to give me my hundred dollars yet?

Note: I am aware that this is not a perfect argument because the Institutes is a different document than some (some) of Luther's writings in the long collection I have, but for general purposes I think this will do just fine.

 
At 7:14 am, Blogger CharlesPeirce said...

Well fine.

Granted that:

(1) My reading was not particularly charitable;
(2) My knowledge of Luther and his writings is reasonable but not expert;
(3) My knowledge of Calvin and his writings is not even close to yours;

Could you thus maybe restate your point a little more succinctly? Your argument now seems to be that "references to church fathers" = tradition = good solid orthodoxy, and I don't think that "references to church fathers" is a necessary and sufficient condition for that argument. I understand that you are taking one of my specific criticisms head on and rebutting it, and I appreciate that, because Lord knows I love to get specific, but I feel like we’ve lost your point even more now!

This is one of my favorite passages from “On Christian Freedom”, and I am citing it to support your position that Calvin is more drenched in tradition and the church fathers than Luther, because it's reasoning on Luther's part with no (overt) reference to anything. I just fail to see how that (1) makes Luther responsible for the current authority crisis (what the heck is the current authority crisis, by the way?) or (2) makes Luther less “orthodox” than Calvin somehow.

“Nor are we only kings and the freest of all men, but also priests forever, a dignity far higher than kingship, because by that priesthood we are worthy to appear before God, to pray for others, and to teach one another mutually the things which are of God. For these are the duties of priests, and they cannot possibly be permitted to any unbeliever.”

I'm enjoying this discussion--I hope you and everyone else are too.

 
At 10:54 am, Blogger RJ said...

I know I am!

 
At 11:09 am, Blogger Hans-Georg Gadamer said...

Charles - thanks for the remarks. I am enjoying the discussion, although I thought it was a bit hostile. Let me see if I can narrow or clarify some things (being reminded that this thread only has a few more comments spaces before something new is needed):

1. It is not so much the number of references to Church Fathers that differentiates Calvin from Luther, or a Catholic perspective from a Protestant perspective; it is the way they are cited. In the Calvin example, Richard Muller has done extensive work (along with Anthony Lane) to deomonstrate that Calvin was actually more of a medieval scholastic theologian than a humanist scholar. I think this is generally correct. This means that Calvin thinks much like Aquinas (as Plantinga has pointed out) in excepting church tradition as somewhat authoritatie (of course not on their own but as they represent the development of Scriptural reflection). So when Calvin is defending a church doctrine he is very likely to appeal to Augustine and let Augustine's authority decide the matter.

This pattern of "Catholic thinking" follows the pattern of:
1. Doctrine questioned
2. Church father brought in as evidence (if a church father has dealt with the issue - much of Calvin's writing is dealing with unique theological thinking - genius!) for position.
3. Calvin rests his case with his own delibration in support of church teaching.

This to me is different than the "Protestant thinking" of:
1. Doctrine questioned
2. Individual's own decision according to Scriptural exegesis (or so called!) and understanding
3. Maybe Church father is brought in to support already accepted decision of the individual.

So the Catholic perspective differs in order of where tradition or fathers are brough in, and I think Calvin roughly follows this pattern (although not always!) which places him against the Protestant thinking as I have deliniated them.

This is an oversimplification to be sure, but there is something here I think in the difference between authority and interpretation which is core to Catholic vs. Protestant thinking.

Thus, the main argument or point of my post was to make an attempt to give some explaination to why Protestants are grounded first in the individual as opposed to Catholics who are quite happy to reflect with the tradition first and let it speak before them.

So the difference lies in where priority is given: Catholics to the outside witnesses to Christian tradition, Protestants to the internal witness to their own reading. Both external and internal witness are necessary in thinking, but the order is significant (even though we are the ones thinking in both cases - solipsism maybe!).

Both camps could use the phrase "thinking with the Church", but to a Protestant it more likely means "using the Church to support my conclusions of interpretation" whereas to a Catholic it means "letting the Church start my reflection and orientation as opposed to my own reading first". I think that is a helpful distinction and maybe will clear some things up.

2. Thanks for the Luther quote. no references even to Scripture (explicitly!). To counter, here is Calvin on the necessity of God's will:

"But what God has determined must necessarily so take place, even though it is neither unconditinally, nor of its own peculiar nature, necessary...(example from bones of Christ)...whence again we see that the distinction concerning relative necessity and absolute necessity, likewise of consequent and consequence, were not recklessly invented in schools (!)"

There we have Calvin thinking from the scholastic model, with Scriptural example and tying it up with his form of "I Answer That..."! Interestingly enough, Luther denied the distinction of consequent and consequence, against the Schoolmen. Surprised?

 
At 7:01 am, Blogger JMC said...

“The overemphasis of current evangelicals on ‘listening to the Spirit,’ like your friend hoping the Spirit would tell him which way to turn, is not the triumph of Kantianism over Protestantism, or the proof of the Catholic Church’s authority against the Protestant’s. It’s a misunderstanding—with roots, certainly, but not the definitive problem with Protestantism, or placing the Bible above ‘the whole Church.’”

I think this is a really important point that Charles has brought up and that got lost in the Calvin/Luther discussion. Hans, I absolutely agree with your assessment of Protestantism in practice, but I wonder if, as Charles suggests, there isn’t a more charitable picture of Protestantism in principle that is worth noting.

At the same time, Charles notes:

“You say ‘Protestantism seems to allow a continuously changing doctrine for the church.’ Unlike—everyone else? Do today’s Catholics understand doctrine as—pre Vatican II believers did? Pre Vatican I? Pre Reformation? Pre church fathers?”

Here, I stand in solidarity with Hans, because I want to make a distinction between the development of doctrine and the amendment of doctrine. That is a sizable differences that reflects, not only the nature of the change in content but also the means by which that changed took place. The short answer to your question about contemporary Catholics is that they both do and do not understand doctrine as pre-Vatican II believers did. It’s complicated, but it is worth noting that their doctrine is different insofar as it clarifies what was already believed rather than changing what one ought to believe as a practicing Christian. That is something that Protestants do have a (in my opinion principled) problem with that has proved disastrous. There are all sorts of discussions about authority and the character of doctrine that could come up here, but it should be sufficient to say that Protestantism has not had a very good account of the continuation of the teachings of the Church or the means by which those could develop (and, at some definitional level, perhaps cannot have such an account).

I don’t mean to be riding the rail too much, but as an Anglican I think that the best the Protestant tradition has to offer is integral to and reflective of Western Christianity AND I think that Western Christianity is principally defined by Rome. I think both are true and never to be lost sight of. Such is the via media.

So, I wonder if both Hans and Charles would be willing to comment some on these two sections that Charles wrote that I consider important but, regrettably, lost in the shuffle.

What do you say?

 
At 10:19 am, Blogger CharlesPeirce said...

J. morgan, you may have inadvertently (or advertently?) gotten to the crux of the discussion with this:

“I wonder if, as Charles suggests, there isn’t a more charitable picture of Protestantism in principle that is worth noting.”

It’s almost as if hans is contrasting “Catholicism in principle” with “Protestantism in contemporary American and Western European practice”—and to what end? I wouldn’t dare speak about contemporary Catholicism in practice because my knowledge of it is so limited.

We’ve also concluded that Calvin cited the church fathers more than Luther, but that Luther is probably not responsible for that nebulous authority crisis among contemporary fluffy Protestants…

“Protestantism has not had a very good account of the continuation of the teachings of the Church or the means by which those could develop (and, at some definitional level, perhaps cannot have such an account).”

Happily granted.

I mean, we have a Lutheran and two Anglicans having this discussion—by our choices and the Spirit’s direction, this is as close as faith and doctrine get to Catholicism without the cold swim! That our disagreements could be so fierce when our choices are so alike is striking, and probably illustrates something, but I don’t know what.

I see a number of narrower theses for hans, all of which I would agree with:

-Catholicism in principle more properly respects tradition than Protestantism in principle.

-Catholics should be commended for their unity.

-Factors X, Y and Z are responsible for “if it feels spiritual, do it” mantra among contemporary Protestants.

-Lutherans and Anglicans should focus more on appropriating tradition than petty, intradenominational squabbling

I just want to make clear that what I disagreed with was the blanket condemnation of both Protestantism in practice and in principle; and the unsupported attempt to link Luther to the unfortunate consequences of the Reformation. (Weren’t there some positive things as well?)

Hans, you think Luther and Calvin should have just stayed Catholic and, in j. morgan’s words, “clarified” away all that silliness about indulgences and papal absurdity, don’t you? =)

Mr. Panzer, any thoughts?

 
At 1:58 pm, Blogger Hans-Georg Gadamer said...

J. Morg and Chalres - excellent insights here. To start where Charles ended: I think Calvin and Luther should have stayed Catholic and Trent did "clarify" away all the indulgence and papal absurdity.

First to J. Morgs stuff:
1. I think your point about Protestantism in principle vs. practice is excellent and causes some reflection. I also think Chalres is right about my attack on protestantism in practice here (in super evangelical mode) and not in principle. I guess my main concern is this:
(1)"Is fluffy solo Scriptura the natural and inevitable outcome of the Reformation?"

Big question obviously which can be also asked of the Catholic Church:
(2)"Are indulgences and papal nonsense the natural and inevitable outcome of the Roman Catholic Church?"

My post basically works from an answer of yes to (1) and no to (2), but the point is well taken that things may not be as easy to determine as the seem. The question which has been buring in me lately to do with this is whether there is any way of preventing the slide into Scriptural individualism in Protestantism? So it is clear that Protestants are more likely to fall into individualistic interpretations than Catholics, but are those who don't holding in spite of the "system" or because of a safety in it?

This is a big concern for me, does Protestantism have any control on doctrine and interpretation, other than my own judgment? Whether it should is a different question, but whether it does I am not sure of. I would love to hear your thoughts on this question concerning controls on interpretation. I think Catholicism has a one up on this, and if it is important enough (which I think it may be) then there might be a reason for a dive.

2. Charles - I agree with all your narrowed focuses and the real debate is now whether "Factors X,Y, and Zed" are not really "Protestantism", whatever that means. Hmmm...should someone give a go at a definition? I think that has been a problem of conversation, much in the same way as I use evangelical in a very different way than J. Morgs does. If I could hazard an initial attempt to be reconsidered by you guys, here it is:

Protestantism (n.)
- The tradition of Christian thought which emphasises personal reading of Scripture and the interpretations found therein.

That sounds pretty nasty to me, to be honest, but I couldn't come up with a better way to annunciate the main point of Protestantism. Maybe personal could be replaced with something less negative, but I think it needs to have some "personal" element. Or maybe not? What say you guys?

As to the charitable reading, I admit to being a bit harsh and caustic in criticism, apologies to those offended. I have been raised in the Protestant tradition and have found much value in it; I am only wondering if this value is actually cribbed from the Catholic tradition. As far as Luther is concerned, you know I have an irrational hatred of his ideas, so I always tend to draw him worse than he really was. Maybe.

 
At 2:56 pm, Blogger Brian Gurley, M.S.M. said...

I can't post now, but I do have thoughts/responses.

Great discussion. Sorry I can't just drop everything and post a comment. Wish I could...

 
At 6:08 pm, Blogger Hans-Georg Gadamer said...

Oh no! I dropped everything and posted a comment! Who's going to pick up this mess?

 
At 7:21 am, Blogger JMC said...

So, I think this is a really important line of thinking that we are hammering out here. Hans, my sense is that your definition of Protestantism is actually a definition of Evangelicalism, which, in my view, is not Protestantism. I have an inability to be anything approaching charitable regarding Evangelicalism, so I will leave that one alone. As for Protestantism, let me venture a definition:

Protestantism (n.) – A tradition in Western Christianity that, while rooted in Western Catholicism, rejected the course along which doctrine developed and proposed an alternative course along which Western Catholicism ought to have developed.

In my mind, Protestantism shares much more in common with Roman Catholicism than with Evangelicalism, however, it rejects the trajectory of Catholicism (that includes the particular development of ecclesiology, sacramentology, dogma, biblical interpretations, etc.). Luther and the Germans (a great band name by the way), Calvin and the Swiss, the French, and, to some extent, the Scottish/English Protestant Reformation meet my definition of Protestantism.

As Hans asked, “I have been raised in the Protestant tradition and have found much value in it; I am only wondering if this value is actually cribbed from the Catholic tradition.” The answer, in my view, is yes. I think that is the point of Protestantism.

Now, as with anything deliberate, there are unintentional consequences. For instance, Luther’s “Priesthood of All Believers” most certainly didn’t intend Hans’s definition or the iPod (long story), but those seem to be some unintentional consequences of that line of thinking.

Now, Protestantism is not without its share of problems, but they aren’t necessarily the problems of Evangelicalism.

 
At 8:11 am, Blogger Hans-Georg Gadamer said...

J. Morgs - excellent insight! I accept the change of name for my definition, remembering that to me we are both Evangelicals.

I think your definition is good, I like it and it is most charitable. As was the intention of this conversation, I think we need to add some footnotes to it. Specifically, is it possible to define further "the course on which doctrine developed"? I think I know what this means, but clarification would be fantastic.

This sounds a lot like Newman when he saw Anglicanism as rejecting medieval Catholicism but going back the the "primitive Church" and Fathers. I think that might be similiar to where your definition is going assuming that Protestantism is a form of Catholicism since tradition and history must play a part in Catholic thinking. Calvin (and maybe Luther) would certainly have fit this mould (as you say) and then the question becomes: If the Roman Church has corrected itself by doing some house cleaning of nonsense,(1) would Calvin (and Luther) rejoined the Church? (2) And should we? (3) Or was their ultimate goal what Protestantism looks like today? I say yes to (1), am anxious about (2), and no to the (3).

 
At 2:38 pm, Blogger Brian Gurley, M.S.M. said...

In response to Hans' question about the control of doctrine and interpretation, I have always seen this as nothing more than the question of authority.

In the framework of Roman ecclesiology, the Magisterium of the Church exists precisely to proclaim the Gospel as transmitted through Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture. The Magisterium is not above them, but serves them through a special charism to teach. This office is carried out in its control over doctrine and interpretation. The most widely seen activity of this control is that of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. This is nothing new.

I don't see any similar "department" in Protestantism. There has been much discussion in the past by hans and j. morgan where they admit the need to check doctrine and interpretation of Scripture against the background of the Church's historical interpretation, and not independently of it (i.e. in an individualistic manner). There is an admitted need, then, for what the Magisterium DOES, but there is not want for the "department" because such a body carries ecclesiological and authoritative consequences.

This is the reason I use the term "department". In my mind, I don't see any room for any similar department in Protestantism. I don't know how it could fit.

So what happens, then, is the search for a way to have the control of a department without the department itself, which still does not solve the problem. There is no concrete and uniform control, which leaves things still open to interpretation.

But how can we trust a department if we don't trust its doctrinal declarations and interpretations? Well, you have that problem wherever you go. I hate to say it, but even though we want to know that we're right on every question, there's a reason why the Church is an article of faith. At the same time, we don't wash our hands of discussion, taking everything blindly without understanding. There are some doctrine and teachings which I am hesitant to subscribe to, those which I question. But if you have a control department, then there is obviously no room for variation. This seems common sense, a logical progression of both scenarios.

So it comes down to authority, which was the same question Luther asked.

I ask, then, if we all admit the need for a concrete control, why not call it the Magisterium. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

It is clearly difficult to set up some similar control department in Protestant communities. If it fits and it's easy to do in the midst of the historical rejection of ecclesial authority, then show me where it's working. Without the department, even the quest to check Scriptural interpretation with a critical understanding of church history has consequences only for the individual. There is no way to enforce even an accurate interpretation.

Thoughts and comments, please.

 
At 2:48 pm, Blogger Brian Gurley, M.S.M. said...

In response to your most recent questions, Hans:

1. I don't know how Luther and Calvin could rejoin. Especially Calvin, with his interpretation of the economy of salvation.

2. Yes, but. If it walks like a duck.... But, you'd have to abandon Calvin's economy of salvation. As I said before, it's too unbalanced toward grace for Roman ecclesiology. So that's the interesting thing. You seem to have the ecclesiology, but there's a disconnect in how you (Calvin) applies orthodox Christology to man. Both Christology and ecclesiiology must be balanced to be in harmony.

3. I hope not. J. Morgan, I like your distinction of evengelicalism and Protestantism. I think I've had that distinction made before (probably by you), but it's definitely a good thing to remember.

Now I'm off to go play for the Lutherans!

 
At 4:21 am, Blogger greg'ry said...

Why don't you use your real name in your post?

Anyway, my quick response to this Anglican / Calvinist post is that I don't believe Jesus cares about any of this. The soul (pun intended) & primary purpose of Jesus is to show the love, mercy and grace of God and to make sure that people were born again and in love with the Father on their way to heaven. Anything else is just fluff and needless intellectual touting.

I have always maintained that Doctrine Divides. Let's get back to basic Christianity. That is the way the Apostles "turned the world upside down," as they went about preaching and making disciples of all people. And I am sure you know what a disciple is.

However, we should be disciples of Jesus, not disciples of Luther, Calvin or any Pope.

 
At 6:57 am, Blogger JMC said...

I don’t know where we are heading anymore, but I do have a few things to say:

So, first, Panzerkardinal, very insightfully I think, hits on something important about Protestantism:

“There is an admitted need, then, for what the Magisterium DOES, but there is not want for the ‘department’ because such a body carries ecclesiological and authoritative consequences.”

I think that is exactly right and my sense is that this admitted need isn’t new (Luther himself writes authoritative letters in response to the peasant’s revolt, Calvin functions – at least in part – in that role for the Council of Geneva, etc.). So, you propose the following question:

”In my mind, I don't see any room for any similar department in Protestantism. I don't know how it could fit.”

There have been, as far as I can tell, three broad solutions – what might be called “Protestant Magisteria” - that various Protestants have proposed in the last 500 years:

1. There literally is no development of doctrine. The idea of it is more or less anathema. Doctrine, rather, has been set by the Reformers themselves and their canon functions as the sole interpretive and guiding companion to the Scriptures. Ecclesial departments exists as authorities to correct and, if necessary, expel those who do not accept the tenants of these doctrines (Departments like this exist in most of the Presbyterian denominations and in some Lutheran denominations, particularly the conservative ones that tend to favor this version of the “Protestant Magisterium.”)

2. Doctrine is developed and guided by a recognized group, however, this group is far larger and more inclusive of the laity than the Roman Magisterium. It usually involves some mix of bishops (or their counterparts), priests (or their counterparts), deacons (or their counterparts), and laity. Lutherans have a Churchwide Assembly, Anglicans have a General Assembly, Baptists have various Conventions, Presbyterians have a General Assembly, Brethren disperse this duty exclusively among laity, etc.

3. Evangelicalism.

If we understand Protestantism as proposing alternatives to the development of Western Catholicism along Roman (and as Newman via Hans suggests Medieval) lines, then we begin to see that this is something that has been attended to. In fact, very closely. The thing is, it is less visible than the Roman Magisterium because it exists in a different ecclesial model.

Secondly, Hans, you have asked some serious questions:

“1) would Calvin (and Luther) rejoined the Church?” Maybe. Luther, as I understand him, had no intention of breaking with the Church (hence the Reformation, not Schism). I think Calvin was of the same mind. I don’t think they would be entirely satisfied with things are they are now (AD 2006), if only because Rome still doesn’t official recognize their work as a corrective and the catalyst for the most palatable direction that things have headed since the 16th century.

“(2) And should we?” Of course, but that is the goal of Protestantism. If you mean “we” on the personal level, then the answer is contingent upon whether or not we think that the goal of Protestantism (3) has been achieved sufficiently. I suspect it has not (1), but others certainly would disagree with me.

“(3) Or was their ultimate goal what Protestantism looks like today?” Protestantism was never intended to be a sustained project, but one that, if successful, would cease to exit (and would be incorporated once again into Rome). As Noll suggests, however, Protestantism has moved in strange ways as Protestants have not only defined themselves in opposition to Rome but now also to each other.

Finally, Greg’ry – Nobody here (I don’t think) would disagree with you when you say that the “primary purpose of Jesus is to show the love, mercy and grace of God and to make sure that people were born again and in love with the Father on their way to heaven.” The questions quickly becomes – and the question for us is – what does that look like, how does that happen, and what means has Christ provided to sort this out? In varying degrees, we all believe that the Church is the continuation of Christ’s presence and ministry in the world. What that is supposed to look like, how that is supposed to function, and what the goals should be then become very pressing questions.

 
At 12:45 pm, Blogger Brian Gurley, M.S.M. said...

Thank you J. Morgan. Well said response to Greg'ry's comment.

Indeed, this discussion has been all over the place. In continuation of Hans' discussion of doctrinal control...

I am aware of the denominational bodies as they strive to meet the need for a control on doctrine and interpretation.

However, I'm not convinced that they make doctrinal pronouncements in a binding manner similar to the Roman Magisterium. The majority of these bodies propose certain doctrines and interpretations, but may lack the means to enforce them. I say "may" because I'm sure there are PCA and LCMS congregations that successfully enforce their views.

Maybe my question about the body of control shouldn't have been about the existence of a department, but rather about doctrinal enforcement.

The ability to enforce an interpretation within a denomination rests again on assumption that the body can authoritatively authenticate orthodoxy -- that the department sets the rule as it were.

Without making sweeping generalizations, I would say that there aren't (m)any protestant departments that would even attempt to claim authority on doctrine. This, of course, makes enforcement rather futile, leaving a lot of room for deviation.

When these theories actually get fleshed out, though, there are some interesting observations. For one, the existence of a Magisterium in Rome is just fine and dandy, yet the majority of Romans don't listen.

 
At 9:49 am, Blogger Hans-Georg Gadamer said...

Gentlemen - this post is getting a bit out of control, but my hope is to get to fifty comments and then it will be over! We'll see, I think there is plenty of good discussion, maybe I can narrow in a next post. Before that some comments on recent work of J. Morg, Josef and Greg'ry.

Greg'ry - the use of my real name is a matter of privacy when I started this thing, not a matter of cowardice or what have you (I felt an insinuation there somewhat inappropriate). Secondly, we all agree on bringing people to Jesus and eternal life, but the minute you use words like born-again, heaven, grace, etc. you need doctrine to explain what those mean. Does born-again imply baptismal regeneration or is it some subjective experience later in life? If there is a heaven, is there a hell? How does one get there and what is the condition of existence once in it, in both cases? So doctrine is essential in Christianity, although we need to be careful about getting caught up too much in doctrine instead of mission within the context of right doctrine. Point taken. My only concern is that everyone I have met who has said they don't need doctrine actually just have a poor form of it (universalism, etc.).

J. Morg - I think your three way distinction of Protestant magisterium is pretty sound, although I am sure there are other ways of chopping it up. I do think that the convention or assembly model that ECUSA and PCUSA follows is not really a Magisterium though since there is no method of enforcement. For example, GC2006 did not "develop" doctrine in the Catholic sense of requiring all ECUSA members to subscribe to it. That is the real issue right now with ACN and TEC - there seems to be no way to say what the Church believes. When someone asks a RC what the Church teaches on ordination, you can pull out the catechism and tell them. All Catholics (as Josef has mentioned) may not agree with the definition, but in that case they are living in "bad faith" since they all vowed to believe in everything the Church teaches at their confirmation and reception. The problem is with the people, not the Church.

In ECUSA (and others, like PCUSA) it may be the other way around. Ask me what the Episcopal Church teaches concerning ordination and I will say "depends who you ask". Bishop Iker says women are not allowed to be ordained and ECUSA allows him to hold that, while the majority are ordaining women. Then there is homsexual ordination. Is there a Church position on this matter or not? I don't think so. In this case then the people are the deciders of what they believe and it is the church which lives in "bad faith" because it makes no doctrinal pronouncments on anything.

And this to me seems a serious problem. Looking over the ordination ceremony in the BCP I can find no reference to a statement of belief or requirements on what I believe (other than maybe a reference to the Nicene Creed, but here it is part of worship and not the charge of the priest). Only that I preach the Word and administer the Sacraments. No other guidelines. This is worrisome to me and seems to say that whatever magisterium we might have - it is all but useless and may not ever have had a foundation in the first place. So in your three fold scheme I think only (1) has any serious weight to it, and it is probably those churches which still follow in the orthodox tradition, as a whole (I know there are faithful churches in all denominations).

So I think the magisterium in Protestantism is more of an "understanding", an agreement between a bunch of people on some common rules and ideas. But we are seeing now what happens when that understanding is challenged - split in the church. Nasty.

Josef - I think you are right about there being no department of doctrine, I think this comes out in my above statements. As to your anti-Catholic views of Calvin, I don't know where those come from. That is a whole different discussion but I don't think Calvin is as far from your understanding of nature and grace as some of your teachers would have you believe. His economy of salvation is strictly Augustinian, an so I think falls within the bounds of RC doctrine, unless you want to throw out Augustine. Again, this is a different discussion, but easy on Calvin, I think there is a serious misunderstanding here.

So to finish up, it seems like there are two questions which Protestantism (or rather, non-RC) has to answer: (1) What is the Church? and (2) What is Authority? RC seems to answer both along objective and visable lines, non-RC seems to tend towards subjective and invisible lines. Mass characterization! And yet...

 
At 12:48 pm, Blogger Brian Gurley, M.S.M. said...

I think this was a very successful post, since it generated this much discussion, regardless of how tangential it may have gotten. After all, no doctrine stands independently from the rest.

For the record, I'm not attempting to burn Calvin at the stake, or to label him a Catholic basher. Neither are my faculty.

I'm not convinced that Calvin got Augustine wrong. At the same time, I feel that some, but not all, of Augustine's writing, have been rhetorically correct in addressing certain heresies, yet overexaggerated in his language. Just because he is a doctor doesn't mean you have to take everything he said literally.

For a different though not unrelated discussion, sure. But visited at some point.

 
At 9:27 am, Blogger Cajun Huguenot said...

Sir,

Thanks for this post. I was born and baptised Roman Catholic, then just before making my First Communion, my parents became Southern Baptists.

As an adult I have migrated into the Reformed Faith. I am reading a good deal of Calvin and the Fathers (38 volumes for $200.00 was impossible to pass up).

I am a tradition minded Protestant, who is ready to scream at times.

All most of my extended family is still Roman Catholic, and I attend Catholic Mass a number of times every year.

I've even considered returning to Rome, but I can not do this honestly. I've read the oath that I would have to take and I can not repeat such an oath with a clear conscience.

Some of my Roman Catholic friends/family have tried to down play the oath. They have said things like "You don't really have to believe everything in it, we don't believe every point either." But they don't have to take the oath.

The Eucharist is a good example. I think Calvin's view of the Eucharist is right on target. In it we truly, by faith, partake of Christ. It is a real event and a means of grace. I can say that I believe that truly partake of Christ (wholly) in the Eucharist in some fashion. Still, I don't agree with transubstantiation. To disagree with Rome on this mean I would have to lie about it in order to join the Roman Church.

I hope and pray for Christian catholicity (little "c"). I don't fit with Southern (USA) Protestantism and I can not go home to Rome.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

 
At 8:03 am, Blogger Hans-Georg Gadamer said...

Cajun,
Wow! Thanks so much for this. It sounds like you and I are basically in the same boat. I also think you are right on with the honesty bit. Probably the biggest thing which has kept me from going to Rome is that oath where I swear to believe in everything Rome teaches. At this point I just can't do that, in the same places as you, I imagine.
I intend to study the Catechism this year and see where I have serious trouble in accepting dogmatic teaching. I am wondering if transubstantiation is the dogma of the Church or just its prefered explanation. I need to look into that.
Thanks again brother, if you figure something out let me know. Cheers!

 
At 4:18 am, Blogger CharlesPeirce said...

50 comments--you win!

 
At 6:16 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear Brother:
While I sympathise with your critique of Protestantism, I believe your laying the cause for the split in the Western church on the doorstep of the Protestant spirit is overly simplistic. There were many other factors involved, including all the political problems that had been accruing for hundreds of years, the previous spiritual failings of the Church, the improvement of scholarship, etc. While there have been, and continue to be, many sad mistakes in what became the Protestant movement, I do not believe the work of the first generation Reformers, by in large, was wrong. Many would have stayed in the Church if they could.

 
At 5:38 am, Anonymous Laws of attractions said...

Nice reading. And a nice blog template,

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